December 2009

Harry Boyd and R.L. "Bob" Nunley are two fantastic and experienced bamboo rod makers in Arkansas who gave me an excellent insight in their rod maker life. Read the interview and admire the length and depth of their knowledge and wisdom.

What is good, is that they together now give bamboo rod building classes in their school. Among their first pupils is Michael Sinclair, author of very famous reference books on Colorado Cane Rods, Fred Divine, Cane Rod Restoration and soon one major work on Goodwin Granger.

Hi  Harry, hi Bob!

It's my pleasure to meet you and ask you a few questions. Since when do you have your bamboo rod making school? is it mainly for local people/USA or do you also have visitors from abroad?

(Bob)  Harry and I have operated the Ozark Rod Making School since late in 2008, however, we've both taught individual classes for many years.  Harry teaches classes from his shop in Winnsboro, Louisianna, USA and I teach my individual classes in Mountain Home, Arkansas, USA.  

 

In 2008, Harry and I decided we could offer a much better course in bamboo rod making, if we joined forces.  This is when we formed the Ozark Rodmaking School.

 

We actually haven't had any students from countries other than the United States, at this time, however, we would gladly welcome students from other countries.  So far, our student have been from all regions of the United States.

Bob, I learned that you are a friend of Ron kusse, the Leonard Rod Co vice-president (if I am correct) and bamboo rod maker, and that he passed much of his knowledge and tricks to you. Is it your way of making rods still much influenced by his teaching? and what about Bob Taylor, did he also influenced you in your style and if positive in which way?

(Bob)  Ron Kusse is a great friend and a wonderful rod maker.  His influence on my style was tremendous.  When I first met Ron, I thought I knew everything there was to know about making a bamboo fly rod.  I was wrong.  Ron taught me details about the craft that I would never have learned without his help.

Bob Taylor, another Leonard rodmaker, is also a friend.  While Bob's influence didn't have as much impact on my personal style as Ron's, but I have learned a lot about the history of fly rods and fly rod companies from both of these wonderful friends.

Which other bamboo rod maker of the past are you closest/dearest to you?

(Bob)  Tom Morgan.  Tom, at one time, owned the RL Winston Rod Company.  Tom and I became friends many years ago on one of my visits to Montana.  I greatly admire Tom.  He is possibly one of the emotionally strongest men I've ever met.  His knowledge of rod making and rod making history is tremendous.

What about you, Harry. Any master rod makers crossing your path or were you just a solitary "wolf" like many bamboo rod makers who started in this craft?

(Harry) I learned rod making from Wayne Cattanach's book and from the early days of the internet in the mid 1990's.  Wayne Cattanach and I became telephone friends and as I built my original tools and early rods spent many hours talking back and forth.  It is hard to over-estimate the value of the internet in helping today's potential rod makers learn the craft.  The multitude of resources available on the web today were in their infancy when I started fifteen years ago.

And I must admit that my friendship with Bob has played a profound influence on the way I do things.  Until mid-2008 I made rods as my second job, spending 25-35 hours per week in the shop.  Bob has been making rods for a living for over 20 years.  While our methods and theories are quite different, our philosophy about bamboo rods is almost identical.  Build the best rod you can.  Period.  It only takes a few more hours to make a great rod than merely a good rod.

 Can I ask you if you are using a beveler machine, always? And do you work in a chain or one rod at a time? One culm a t a time to make one rod?

(Bob)  I always use my saw beveler, but I generally do so only making one rod at a time.  I guess it would be more productive for me to mass produce rods, but that's not what I want to do.  I want to work on one rod, concentrated all of my efforts on ONE rod and make that rod as perfect as I can make it.

(Harry) I use a router based beveller to do much of the initial work, but all my rods are ultimately hand planed.  Because set-up time is valuable, I often make two or more blanks at once.  Only one rod is finished out from blanks at a time, though.  And almost all of my rods have been made from a single culm.  With careful selection of the materials, more than one rod can usually be made from that single piece of bamboo.  If two or more rods are being made at once from a single culm, the best looking strips always go in my customers' rods.

Just out of curiosity, any experience to share about your plane (which brand do you use) and how do you sharpen it? How often?

(Harry) I use well tuned old Stanley # 9.5 hand planes almost exclusively.  While I have tried the modern Stanley planes and also the more expensive modern planes modeled after the Stanley, I always come back to the original.  More than 20 old Stanley planes clutter the benches in my shop. 

The blades are sharpened with a Lea-Valley honing jig and diamond whetstones.  The main bevel is 30 degrees with a 2 degree microbevel.  A handful of my plane irons have a strip of micro grain carbide brazed to their ends.  The carbide stays sharp many times longer than steel.  Carbide blades are sharpened only 3 or 4 times a year.  Steel blades, on the other hand, are sharpened after planing six strips.  But that is misleading because I use a series of planes on every strip.  With a plane whose blade makes a .003" shaving I plane down to about .015" oversized.  With a second plane which removes .002" shavings I remove material until the strip is about .005" oversized.  With a third plane which removes tiny shavings from .0005"-.001" I remove material until the strip is flush with the top of my planing forms.

What type of action do you prefer in your rods? 

(Bob)  I like a faster more progressive action, similar to the rods made in Central Valley, New York, USA, better known as the "Catskills" rods.  These rods, mainly the Payne and Leonard styles, fit my casting style better than any other.

(Harry) While I enjoy almost all types of actions, my personal rods are all medium fast.  Actions similar to the stronger Paynes, two piece Dickersons, and some rare Leonard rods are my favorites.  But I am learning to really enjoy my own versions of classic parabolic actions, which feature moderately swelled butts.

 Bob, you also make quad rods. Any preferences between hex and quad rods?

 
(Bob)  I actually have no preference.  I feel like the quad rods have their advantages in weight savings and a very slight advantage in casting along a straight plane, but the sheer beauty of a well built hex rod is hard to beat.  I can look at a well made Hex rod and say "Wow!", but no matter how good the cosmetics, it's hard for me to get excited about how nice a quad rod looks. 

How do you sign your rods? Any special numbering ?

(Bob)  Many years ago, I picked up the same numbering system Gary Howells used.  We talked about it on the phone one day and he told me that I'd lose track if I just numbered them, so adopted his method.  The first two numbers on the serial number are my age at the time I made the rod.  The last two numbers are the number rod for that year.  For example 5305 wold be the fifth rod I made when I was 53 years old.

(Harry) Strangely, without knowing how Bob signed his rods I adopted exactly the same system.  The rods I am working on right now are #'s 5101 - 5105.  They are the first five rods I will have completed in the year I am 51 years old.

The rattan grip handle. Who is the maker of it, Bob or Harry? How did the idea come? I never fished with a rattan handle, would you recommend it?

(Bob)  I'd have to say that I'm the one who makes the majority of the rattan handles.  I started using rattan years ago when I had come to own an old H.L. Leonard fly rod, from the 1800's that had a rattan handle.  The first thing I noticed about the rod was that the rattan was still in great shape.  The rod was over 100 years old, yet the handle was still pristine.  I've never seen last through the years like that, so I began producing rattan handles.  My style is a little different than most modern rod makers that use rattan, but the result is the same... a handle that's beautiful and durable.

I love rattan handles for two reasons.  First, the availability of very high quality cork in the USA has dried up.  The cork that we do get is substandard compared to what we were getting 10 or 15 years ago.  Using rattan relieves this concern, as the rattan is consistent in quality and appearance.

The second reason I like it is the function.  Many think that the rattan would be slick in your hand in the water.  Quite the contrary, it's every bit as easy to fish as cork.  The main difference is that when the day is done, your cork is dirty and hard to clean.  The rattan will look the same way it did the day you finished it on the rod.

I would strongly recommend the use of rattan handles.  It's really nothing new.  Rattan has been around as a handle on fly rods for well over a century.  It's just seeing a resurgence in today's fly fishing world.

(Harry) I have only made a few rattan grips, but greatly admire their beauty and functionality.  I was fortunate to lay in a large stock of high quality cork about a dozen years ago and use it for the vast majority of my grips.  Occasionally a customer requests something different, and I have made grips from composite cork, rattan, Douglas fir bark, and even wood.

Any funny mistake during you bamboo rod making process?

(Bob) Oh, yeah, I have a lot of funny mistakes.  As a matter of fact, I have a book that is going to be re-published in 2010, called Extreme Flyfishing.  It's full of mistakes that I've made in the shop and in the field.

(Harry) While they aren't always funny at the time, the strange  happenings are part of what rod makers share with one another around evening campfires on fishing trips.  Both Bob and I will remind our rod making friends that plastic dip tubes of varnish do not mix well with compressed air!   Some of my funnier exploits will be included with the writings I hope to publish in Spring or Summer 2010.

Stupid things happen too.  For instance just this past Fall I built an eight foot five weight for a customer.  The guides were wrapped and two coats of varnish were applied before I remembered that it was supposed to be hollow built.  Needless to say, I had to start over.  As a result, I over hauled my record keeping system.

 
How do you temper your bamboo strips? For how long? Is your oven horizontal or vertically placed? Any suggestion or experience to share?

(Bob) I temper my strips in a heat gun based oven. Actually it's in a heat gun oven that Harry and I manufacture and sell.   This is the only oven I've seen so far that will hold consistent enough temperatures to properly temper the bamboo.  I temper my strips at 385 degrees F, for 12 minutes.

(Harry) I temper my strips in a similar manner in the oven we make.  Using extruded aluminum heat treating fixtures I offer for sale, I heat treat while the strips are roughed out to non-tapered equilateral triangles.  Flamed rods are heated for 11 minutes at 375 degrees while blonde rods are held at 375 degrees for 14 minutes.  Those times and temperatures were worked out based on a certain smell that begins to seep out of the oven as the heating stops removing moisture and just first begins to actually cook the oils of the bamboo itself.

 
Which glues do you use?

(Bob) I use URAC 185.  I've experimented with a few other glues, but I always come back to URAC.  It's tough, water proof, chemical proof and has been used for many decades by many great rod makers.

(Harry) I also use Urac 185 on my solid built rods, but use a mix of industrial epoxy resins and hardeners from Shell Chemical on my hollow built rods.  The Urac makes a somewhat stiffer rod, but the Shell Epon Epoxy gives me considerably longer working times.

The finishing moment seems to be pretty daunting to me. I can ruin the work if I don't varnish my rod well (and in fact I did) , and so far I haven't improved so much, I must say (I am still a beginner). But it appears to me that you also consider this moment quite crucial and I read from your website (bob) that your varnishing room is quite sophisticated, with a deionizing dust filter, optional dehumidifier, etc...Which single improvement enhanced your varnishing substantially, in your opinion?

(Bob) I don't really think there is any one part of my process that makes the finish great.  It's a combination of all things.   If I were to tell someone in one sentence how to make great finishes on fly rods, I'd say "Clean rod + clean air + clean varnish = a great finish."  I'd call that the ultimate rod making formula.

(Harry) Great finish work cannot be found in a formula.  It's an attitude more than a procedure.  No compromises are allowed.  To get a great finish, my most important advice would be "Slow down and think about what you are trying to achieve."

Bob, you made over  800 rods so far (!), I understand, and you still say that you are learning everytime. This is very humble and wise. Can you tell us what you learned recently as an example (even a small detail or impression)? 

(Bob)  While I haven't tried this yet, I read a method for cutting the ferrule stations on a rod blank the other day, from a friends website.  A friend of mine, David Bolin has a blog called the Searcy Sowbug, and he showed a method he uses of clamping a file to the tool post on a lathe to cut perfect ferrule stations.  I am definitely going to try it.  It's like many of the things I've learned from others.  I thought "Why didn't I ever think of that... GREAT idea!"

How many rods per year can you make? Where do you sell them? Are they all pre-ordered before? How long did it last for you to become known as a bamboo rod builder?

 

(Bob)  The most rods I ever made and sold in one year was 47. That was a hard year for me.  I was hand planing at the time and that's averaging nearly a rod each week and it took it's toll on my be the years end.   I'm more comfortable making about 30 to 35 rods per year.  All of my rods are pre-ordered and they go everywhere.  South Africa, Japan, all over North America.

 

I guess I realized that I was respected as a rod maker about 10 to 12 years into the craft.  Of course, back then, the internet wasn't as popular as it is today, so it may not take as long in these more modern times, for a rod maker to become well known and respected.

(Harry) Last year, in my first year making rods full-time, I made 26 rods.  While that may not seem like many, I was away from the shop for 14 weeks traveling to shows, classes and rod makers gatherings.  While making rods as a second full-time job, the most I made in one year was 17. 

Almost all my rods are custom ordered.  While the majority are sold in the US my customers range from Singapore to Switzerland and Germany.  My internet writings, frequent demonstrations at shows and gatherings, and websites have helped me keep my name in front of bamboo rod buyers. 

 
Which is the part of rodmaking that you like the most - the least?

(Bob)  There can be no doubt that the part of the craft I enjoy the most is finishing the rods.  I sometimes will stand in the varnish room in awe as the rod comes out of the varnish, thinking "This started as a 2 1/2" bamboo pole, and look at it now!!!".  The part I like the least? Straightening strips and pressing nodes.  I never have enjoyed that part of the craft, and never will.

(Harry) I enjoy all parts of rod making.  My favorite moments are those when I learn something new.  For example, just this week I devised a new rough bevelling contraption that works well, is not expensive, and should save me some time and effort in making rods.  Every time I sand the excess glue off a new blank I sit back and admire what nature has allowed me to be a part of creating.  Creating something with my own hands is an almost spiritual experience for me.  I love to cast the rods and have taught myself to be an accomplished caster.  Taking a fresh new rod out for its first few casts is often a moment of near epiphany.

 
Do you make all of your own hardware or do you buy it? From which company(ies)?

(Bob) I make everything on my rods except the stripper guide and tip top.  Soon, I plan to start making my own agate guides, then the tip top will come shortly after that.

(Harry) Because they are the best made, I use Snake Brand guides on all my rods.  My reel seats and ferrules are shop made and my own designs.  In the past I purchased almost all my ferrules from Classic Sporting Enterprises because I believe they make the best ferrules available commericially.  Why would anyone spend 30-60 hours making a rod and use less than the best available components?

 
Now, to cool off....Can you tell us where, in your opinion, are the best fly fishing areas in Arkansas? Any suggestion you would like to give to any visitor visiting you or Arkansas ( I don't know much about your home state), also what kind of scenery/landscape is it?

(Bob) The best fly fishing area in Arkansas is right outside my window!  I live in North Central Arkansas, less than 15 minutes drive to the White River, one of the premier Blue Ribbon rivers in the United States.  If a fly fisher wants to go for something besides trout, we have the Buffalo National Scenic River and Crooked Creek, both famous for their breathtaking scenary and trophy Smallmouth Bass.  The local lakes, Bull Shoals and Norfork, hold numerous warmwater species of fish and are a sportsmans paradise. 

If someone asked me about coming to Arkansas, I'd tell them to reserve enough time to see the entire state.  Arkansas has everything from Blue Ribbon Trout Water to top ground diamond mines, open to the public, to some of the most awesome and beautiful underground caverns in the world.  Arkansas is called "The Natural State".  It  could just as easily be called "The State of Natural Wonders".

Anything you want to add ?

(Harry) This is a wonderful craft which at its highest levels approaches art.  There is something in all of us which longs to create things of both function and beauty.  Helping others achieve that moment creation is a real passion for me, and I think for Bob too.  That is why we began the Ozark Rod Makers School.  And it is a part of why we make rods.  Rod making is not an easy career path.  There are many ways one can earn more money.  But few are as rewarding.

Thank you!

Pictures with courtesy of Harry Boyd and Bob Nunley

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